java still worthwhile?

Post by dale
Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting to
note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

I like Java as a general purpose programming language and agree with your
dislike of most IDEs. I don't use 'em.

I use a text-only, multi-buffering editor whose capacity to edit multiple
files as once is only limited by system memory, so thats one argument for
using an IDE solved. Most of the rest can be solved by understanding ant
and using it as a command-line tool in exactly the same way as you'd use
'make' when building a multi-source-module C program.

This makes Java development from the command line easy. For ewxample,
with a well-structured build.xml file, using a command like

ant clean all docs

to do a from-scratch Java compile and generate program documentation with
javadocs becomes straight forward and fast too. I reckon this covers the
other main benefit claimed for using an IDE.

This leaves only refactoring, which I have no real workround for apart
from careful design of classes and the way they interact.

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

dale

2019-02-26 23:37:51 UTC

I like Java as a general purpose programming language and agree with your
dislike of most IDEs. I don't use 'em.
I use a text-only, multi-buffering editor whose capacity to edit multiple
files as once is only limited by system memory, so thats one argument for
using an IDE solved. Most of the rest can be solved by understanding ant
and using it as a command-line tool in exactly the same way as you'd use
'make' when building a multi-source-module C program.
This makes Java development from the command line easy. For ewxample,
with a well-structured build.xml file, using a command like
ant clean all docs
to do a from-scratch Java compile and generate program documentation with
javadocs becomes straight forward and fast too. I reckon this covers the
other main benefit claimed for using an IDE.
This leaves only refactoring, which I have no real workround for apart
from careful design of classes and the way they interact.

Thank You !!! Know little about XML and only heard about ant a couple
times. I would want a debugger that gives me row and column numbers. I
don't know anything about refactoring. I would spend the time on a
use-case diagram and class/SDK/etc. diagram; might not be all as easy as
I think. Getting into the dirt of programming is going to require a
reference to rely on. Microsoft's PowerShell ISE seems to be something
closer to what I could do now that I think of it.

--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

Martin Gregorie

2019-02-27 00:24:51 UTC

Post by dale
Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting
to note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

I like Java as a general purpose programming language and agree with
your dislike of most IDEs. I don't use 'em.
I use a text-only, multi-buffering editor whose capacity to edit
multiple files as once is only limited by system memory, so thats one
argument for using an IDE solved. Most of the rest can be solved by
understanding ant and using it as a command-line tool in exactly the
same way as you'd use 'make' when building a multi-source-module C
program.
This makes Java development from the command line easy. For ewxample,
with a well-structured build.xml file, using a command like
ant clean all docs
to do a from-scratch Java compile and generate program documentation
with javadocs becomes straight forward and fast too. I reckon this
covers the other main benefit claimed for using an IDE.
This leaves only refactoring, which I have no real workround for apart
from careful design of classes and the way they interact.

Thank You !!! Know little about XML and only heard about ant a couple
times.

You don't need to know much about XML to use ant. Its documentation is
good.

Something I should have said, though DON'T EVEN THINK OF USING MAKE TO
COMPILE JAVA because the java compiler tends to compile all the classes
in a package simultaneously because it makes cross-checks easier and this
screws up strictly linear compiler managers like make. Trying to write a
make recipe for anything except the simplest Java compilation tends to
end in tears.

Post by dale
I would want a debugger that gives me row and column numbers.

I don't think columns are relevant - the compiler can indicate precisely
where an error is with only line numbers and splitting lines at the error.

I don't use debuggers, preferring to insert trace statements (which stay
in forever, and use command-line options to turn them on or off and
control detail shown. Writing trace output to a circular buffer that only
gets dumped at a crash or fatal error is also good for long-running
processes, but YMMV.

Post by dale
don't know anything about refactoring.

AKA realising that code sections are misplaced or are being duplicated in
many classes and either moving them to a more sensible place, such as a
superclass or abstracting them to form a new support class and using that
to replace the duplicated code.

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

dale

2019-02-27 01:55:39 UTC

Post by dale
Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting
to note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

I like Java as a general purpose programming language and agree with
your dislike of most IDEs. I don't use 'em.
I use a text-only, multi-buffering editor whose capacity to edit
multiple files as once is only limited by system memory, so thats one
argument for using an IDE solved. Most of the rest can be solved by
understanding ant and using it as a command-line tool in exactly the
same way as you'd use 'make' when building a multi-source-module C
program.
This makes Java development from the command line easy. For ewxample,
with a well-structured build.xml file, using a command like
ant clean all docs
to do a from-scratch Java compile and generate program documentation
with javadocs becomes straight forward and fast too. I reckon this
covers the other main benefit claimed for using an IDE.
This leaves only refactoring, which I have no real workround for apart
from careful design of classes and the way they interact.

Thank You !!! Know little about XML and only heard about ant a couple
times.

You don't need to know much about XML to use ant. Its documentation is
good.
Something I should have said, though DON'T EVEN THINK OF USING MAKE TO
COMPILE JAVA because the java compiler tends to compile all the classes
in a package simultaneously because it makes cross-checks easier and this
screws up strictly linear compiler managers like make. Trying to write a
make recipe for anything except the simplest Java compilation tends to
end in tears.

Post by dale
I would want a debugger that gives me row and column numbers.

I don't think columns are relevant - the compiler can indicate precisely
where an error is with only line numbers and splitting lines at the error.
I don't use debuggers, preferring to insert trace statements (which stay
in forever, and use command-line options to turn them on or off and
control detail shown. Writing trace output to a circular buffer that only
gets dumped at a crash or fatal error is also good for long-running
processes, but YMMV.

Post by dale
don't know anything about refactoring.

Thanks Again Martin !!! I will now digest for awhile. By the way, did
you put spaces in the sci.engr.color group? I left it out now. Last
reply set the follow-ups to my original post because that was still in
my buffer and didn't know if you left it out on purpose, apologies if
you did.

--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

dale

2019-02-27 01:55:39 UTC

Post by dale
Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting
to note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

I like Java as a general purpose programming language and agree with
your dislike of most IDEs. I don't use 'em.
I use a text-only, multi-buffering editor whose capacity to edit
multiple files as once is only limited by system memory, so thats one
argument for using an IDE solved. Most of the rest can be solved by
understanding ant and using it as a command-line tool in exactly the
same way as you'd use 'make' when building a multi-source-module C
program.
This makes Java development from the command line easy. For ewxample,
with a well-structured build.xml file, using a command like
ant clean all docs
to do a from-scratch Java compile and generate program documentation
with javadocs becomes straight forward and fast too. I reckon this
covers the other main benefit claimed for using an IDE.
This leaves only refactoring, which I have no real workround for apart
from careful design of classes and the way they interact.

Thank You !!! Know little about XML and only heard about ant a couple
times.

You don't need to know much about XML to use ant. Its documentation is
good.
Something I should have said, though DON'T EVEN THINK OF USING MAKE TO
COMPILE JAVA because the java compiler tends to compile all the classes
in a package simultaneously because it makes cross-checks easier and this
screws up strictly linear compiler managers like make. Trying to write a
make recipe for anything except the simplest Java compilation tends to
end in tears.

Post by dale
I would want a debugger that gives me row and column numbers.

I don't think columns are relevant - the compiler can indicate precisely
where an error is with only line numbers and splitting lines at the error.
I don't use debuggers, preferring to insert trace statements (which stay
in forever, and use command-line options to turn them on or off and
control detail shown. Writing trace output to a circular buffer that only
gets dumped at a crash or fatal error is also good for long-running
processes, but YMMV.

Post by dale
don't know anything about refactoring.

--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

Eric Sosman

2019-02-27 12:28:29 UTC

In the United States we have a saying: "You're preaching to
the choir," meaning that someone is laboring to convince those
who are already believers.

It seems to me you're engaged in a sort of reversal of that
practice: You're asking the choir whether music has value. If you
want opinions about music and conduct your poll at a conservatory,
be just a bit suspicious about the outcome. If you're studying the
plague of firearms at an NRA convention, take the results with a
grain of salt. And if you're interested in the merits of Java,
asking Java-heads is maybe not the best way to get unbiased answers!

Just sayin' ...

--
***@comcast-dot-net.invalid
Six hundred ninety-three days to go.

dale

2019-02-27 14:32:09 UTC

Post by dale
Is java still worth my effort? Just a pastime and something resulting
to note in my resume. I know the fundamentals of object oriented
architecture, design and programming. Don't quite like using Netbeans
IDE, or any other IDE, but could get used to it ...

    In the United States we have a saying: "You're preaching to
the choir," meaning that someone is laboring to convince those
who are already believers.
    It seems to me you're engaged in a sort of reversal of that
practice: You're asking the choir whether music has value. If you
want opinions about music and conduct your poll at a conservatory,
be just a bit suspicious about the outcome. If you're studying the
plague of firearms at an NRA convention, take the results with a
grain of salt. And if you're interested in the merits of Java,
asking Java-heads is maybe not the best way to get unbiased answers!
    Just sayin' ...

Just listening ...

--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

Joerg Meier

2019-03-01 10:10:22 UTC

Java is huge, gigantic; by many metrics it is or is competing for the #1
language globally. It is absolutely worth the effort. Due to the enourmous
ecosystem, the spread of Java is also all but guaranteed for the coming
decades. On the flip side, that does mean that there is a wide breadth of
knowledge that potential employees would like you to have - EE, Spring,
Hibernate, JPA, Struts, Vaadin, Dropwizard, GWT, play, Vert.x, just to name
a few.

If you aim to ever actually work in a professional Java environment, I fear
you are ill advised by some of the replies you have gotten. I have
considered whether to broach that subject as I don't like putting down
fellow developers, but if you were to utter that you dont use an IDE or
that you use Ant in a job interview, you would be rightfully laughed out
the door at almost any employer.

If you want to use Java in the job market, I would argue that you must at
least have a working familiarity with the following:

- Either Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA. Java is explicitly developed for use
from an IDE, and not using one will mark you as someone mentally stuck in
the 90s and unwilling to change. I'm sorry to state this so agressively,
but this point cannot be overstated. In the Java world, IDEs won, it's that
simple. We literally throw away applications that dont list one of the big
three IDEs in their skills section.

- Maven and, optionally, Gradle. Maven is the de-facto standard of Java
development, with Gradle being the newer but still and possibly permanently
runner up. Ant is an antiquated tool that even at its prime was widely
loathed because it is quite horrible and that has been on a steep decline
since 2005.

- Git, another de-facto standard of the professional Java world. Source
control is a must-have even if you work alone, and professional
colaborative work in this day and age is unthinkable without modern source
control software, and Git is a lonely leader in the Java world.

- The basics of logging frameworks. Java has a bunch of these, but
thankfully, in the last few years, they have pretty much united under the
framework agnostic abstraction SLF4J. SLF4J being a facade, not a
framework, it allows you and others to use whatever logging framework you
prefer, while having the logging statements compatible. You will need a
founding in logging frameworks for really any serious Java project, no
matter whether you do front-end, back-end, middleware, batch jobs, games,
SaaS or any other thing that comes along tomorrow.

Liebe Gruesse,
Joerg

--
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

dale

2019-03-01 15:11:08 UTC

Post by Joerg Meier

Java is huge, gigantic; by many metrics it is or is competing for the #1
language globally. It is absolutely worth the effort. Due to the enourmous
ecosystem, the spread of Java is also all but guaranteed for the coming
decades. On the flip side, that does mean that there is a wide breadth of
knowledge that potential employees would like you to have - EE, Spring,
Hibernate, JPA, Struts, Vaadin, Dropwizard, GWT, play, Vert.x, just to name
a few.
If you aim to ever actually work in a professional Java environment, I fear
you are ill advised by some of the replies you have gotten. I have
considered whether to broach that subject as I don't like putting down
fellow developers, but if you were to utter that you dont use an IDE or
that you use Ant in a job interview, you would be rightfully laughed out
the door at almost any employer.
If you want to use Java in the job market, I would argue that you must at
- Either Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA. Java is explicitly developed for use
from an IDE, and not using one will mark you as someone mentally stuck in
the 90s and unwilling to change. I'm sorry to state this so agressively,
but this point cannot be overstated. In the Java world, IDEs won, it's that
simple. We literally throw away applications that dont list one of the big
three IDEs in their skills section.
- Maven and, optionally, Gradle. Maven is the de-facto standard of Java
development, with Gradle being the newer but still and possibly permanently
runner up. Ant is an antiquated tool that even at its prime was widely
loathed because it is quite horrible and that has been on a steep decline
since 2005.
- Git, another de-facto standard of the professional Java world. Source
control is a must-have even if you work alone, and professional
colaborative work in this day and age is unthinkable without modern source
control software, and Git is a lonely leader in the Java world.
- The basics of logging frameworks. Java has a bunch of these, but
thankfully, in the last few years, they have pretty much united under the
framework agnostic abstraction SLF4J. SLF4J being a facade, not a
framework, it allows you and others to use whatever logging framework you
prefer, while having the logging statements compatible. You will need a
founding in logging frameworks for really any serious Java project, no
matter whether you do front-end, back-end, middleware, batch jobs, games,
SaaS or any other thing that comes along tomorrow.
Liebe Gruesse,
Joerg

Thanks for the detailed reply Joerg !!!

Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

How about github instead of git?

--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

Arne Vajhøj

2019-03-02 03:07:27 UTC

Post by dale
Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

It is not nearly as popular at IntellJ IDEA and Eclipse, but
you can certainly develop with it.

Arne

Joerg Meier

2019-03-05 08:40:07 UTC

Post by dale
Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

Yes, but it's a very distant #3 with the top spots going to Eclipse and
IntelliJ IDEA, #1 being up to personal taste. If you got a choice, pick
either Eclipse or IDEA, but if you are stuck with Netbeans, thats okay too.

Post by dale
How about github instead of git?

Git is a protocol, GitHub is a website offering free git repositories. So
by using GitHub you do use git. You can use git without GitHub, think of
GitHub as an online storage of your git repository (it's a little more than
that, but its a good aproximation).

That being said, GitHub is awesome, although I personally prefer GitLab,
and not only because GitHub is now owned by Microsoft. Here, too, you have
a variety of options you can pick from, but if you are married to GitHub,
that's a perfectly fine choice.

Liebe Gruesse,
Joerg

--
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

dale

2019-03-05 14:33:29 UTC

Post by Joerg Meier

Post by dale
Is Netbeans an acceptable IDE?

Post by dale
How about github instead of git?

Git is a protocol, GitHub is a website offering free git repositories. So
by using GitHub you do use git. You can use git without GitHub, think of
GitHub as an online storage of your git repository (it's a little more than
that, but its a good aproximation).
That being said, GitHub is awesome, although I personally prefer GitLab,
and not only because GitHub is now owned by Microsoft. Here, too, you have
a variety of options you can pick from, but if you are married to GitHub,
that's a perfectly fine choice.
Liebe Gruesse,
Joerg

Thank you very much Joerg !!!

--
dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/

John McWilliams

2019-03-05 21:56:07 UTC